8 comments

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  Jennifer

  11 months ago

  "12 and 13 year old kids have sex. That’s a fact of life. Sure, they usually do it with other 12 and 13 year olds, granted, but it doesn’t change the fact that it happens. It’s something our culture doesn’t like to talk about, but it’s been true throughout the history of our species and is still legally accepted in many parts of the world."
  
  So because 12 and 13 year olds have sex with each other, then are you saying that makes it easier to understand why an adult and a 12 or 13 year would have sex with each other?
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  ryan

  11 months ago

  What I'm saying is that there are cases where kids are sexualized by other kids. Adults should never take the role of sexualizing kids, that's wrong and it's an adults job to reign in those kinds of impulses. However, in terms of understanding pedophiles, I think that yes, child sexuality is part of understanding it.
  
  In the case of Humbert Humbert, his first love was a 12 year old girl when he himself was that age. As he aged, his sexual preference stayed stuck where it was. From this perspective, his 12-year-old sexuality is absolutely the key to understanding his lifelong obsession for girls of that age. It is stunted growth.
  
  From an evolutionary perspective, we are the only species that does not start procreating as soon as we reach sexual maturity. Waiting until a socially appropriate age to begin sexual activity is a very recent invention in our species, only a few thousand years old in the parts of the world where it is the case at all. This is to be weighed against millions of years of biologically driven behavior. If a 12 year old boy wants to have sex with a 35 year old woman, he might be acting on a biological imperative. It is not necessarily a one-sided situation.
  
  Now, I want to be very clear that I'm an NOT saying that this excuses adults in this situation or in any way justifies their behavior. Just because something stems from natural or evolutionary causes does not make it OK. That is the naturalistic fallacy. However, youthful sexuality does help in comprehending why such events and relationships take place.
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  Jennifer

  11 months ago

  I can kind of see what you are saying. However, children are born as sexual beings. Pedophilia is more of a seduction than a rape, no matter what the age of the child. That is why it is so confusing and distressing to children who have experienced it, because it is unwanted, yet it feels good.
  
  Furthermore, there is more to reaching sexual maturity than simply being able to have sex. Is a 12 year old female sexually mature? No way. Many 12 year old females are not even menstruating yet. Gestating, birthing and breastfeeding are part of sexuality. Our species has large headed offspring, which is why they are born about three months before they end their "fetal" stage (no other animal's offspring are born at such a helpless, immature stage of development). Therefore, I would argue that evolutionary driven sex occurs more around the age of 16, when the females hips have widened sufficiently to allow a baby to grow to a normal size, and to pass through the pelvis, and after her breasts have fully developed. Also, she is full grown by this age, so her own growth or the baby's growth would not be affected by a pregnancy, all the nutrients could go to the baby. If our species had started coupling off at 12 years old, the infants and the 12 year old mothers would have had a much higher rate of death during pregnancy and childbirth and our species would have suffered. They both may have had growth retardation if they did not have access to vast amounts of nutrients (which they wouldn't if another 12 year old was providing for them), which in turn would affect subsequent pregnancies. Also, a 12 year old would not have had a very high rate of success in breastfeeding her offspring due to both physical and mental immaturity. And a male 12 year old would not have been chosen, even by an older woman, because he would not have been able to hunt, build shelter, or do the things needed to keep his offspring alive. He would not be full grown, so he would want to eat all the food he managed to get.
  
  So, what I'm trying to say is, 16 or 17 is a much more biologically appropriate age to start having sex, and the development of our species reflects that this is true. Also, just because a 12 year old may be a sexual being, and may have experimented with sex with their peers, doesn't mean they are ready to have sex with a truly sexually mature adult. It is the same as having sex with a 10 year old, or a 7 year old. Those children may be sexual beings, they may have sexually experimented with their peers, but no one is ever ready for a sexual relationship where one person has all the power and another has none.
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  Jennifer

  11 months ago

  Just a little correction: I said that human babies are the least developed of all animals, but I meant they are the least developed of all primates. They are also comparatively underdeveloped when you look at most animal species, but not all, there are kangaroos after all, and perhaps some others :-)
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  ryan

  11 months ago

  I agree with you on pretty much everything you said. I think that 16 is a much more reasonable age of consent in most cases, for example. Although, if you looked at the map I linked to you would have noticed the following:
  
  Throughout the United States, the age of consent varies from 16-18, with 16 being the most common. This would indicate that for the most part your views are inline with the majority of the culture you live in. However, in South America, 14 years old is the most common with some areas as young as 13 or (in the case of Mexico) 12. This would seem to indicate that cultural norms are different in South America where sex is concerned. The majority of European countries follow the South American trend with 14 being the norm, with a few countries on the 13 or 15 side. The most common age of consent globally seems to be 16, but it ranges from 9 to 20.
  
  If nothing else, this indicates that there is only partial consensus on this subject.
  
  One thing I want to clarify. When I use the term "sexual maturity" I mean it in the strictly biological sense of being capable of reproduction. I don't mean being OPTIMALLY capable of reproduction (yes, a wider hipped, fuller breasted more matured woman is more capable of successfully birthing a child than a 12 year old who just started menstruating, but evolution rewards reproductive success, suboptimal or no), and I certainly don't mean it in the sense of being psychologically sexually mature. I don't believe that anybody can be psychologically defined as "mature" until they are at least 25, as this is the point at which our initial neural development completes.
  
  The interesting fact is that as a species we have removed our behaviours further and further away from our animal biology, but our animal biology and culture are still far from in sync. Because some girls are physically capable of reproduction at the age of 12 while others are not until the age of 14 or 15 but nearly all are by the age of 16, we have something of a consensus that it's somewhere around 16 for girls. A similar window exists for boys, with some being early bloomers and some late. Our societal definition of "adult" as 18 years old is one based on the idea that the majority are fairly certain to have reached physical adulthood by that age, although again there will be stragglers and those who were well ahead of the curve.
  
  The point is that Mexico, with their 12 year old age of consent, seems to be basing their decision on the early bloomers biologically. Interestingly, Spain is close behind them at 13.
  
  It's tough to know what to make of all of this beyond the fact that our culture and biology are both in flux, shaping each other, and that the attitudes about right and wrong here are all over the map.
  
  For my money, I would never want to be involved, sexually or otherwise, with anybody under 25, because I don't feel that you are truly an adult until at least that age.
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  Jennifer

  11 months ago

  There probably is not consensus on the age of sexual maturity because it varies culturally. In some areas of the world girls start menstruating at 9 years old, so I suppose by 12 they are sexually mature. But, there is just so much more involved in successful reproduction then the act of sex, that I still think you have to look at all the factors when making this decision. I think we have to look at the age of "optimal" sexual maturity, not whether or not sex might be possible.
  
  Also, I think whenever anyone is under age 18, we have to look at the age discrepancy between the two parties. If a guy in his 30's is having sex with 12 year olds, that weird and creepy no matter how sexually mature she is. If my 18 year old son has sex with a 16 year old, I don't want him to be sent to jail over it because they are peers. So, I think that you can't just factor in sexual maturity, but how much older the other person is and how much power they hold over the younger person.
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  falterer

  11 months ago

  Flying in the face of other commenters, I won't comment on Lolita except to say that your description of it reminds me a little of Luc Besson's film Leon, which I saw as a teenager, and which blew me away.
  
  Instead, I'd like to say this: I associate cigars with two people:
  
  1. J. Jonah Jameson
  2. Groucho Marx
  
  Both characters are insanely cool, but you're messin' with my mental image of you, Ryan! Even at your angriest, as above, I somehow picture you sitting Sukhasana on a hardwood floor, MacBook Pro floating before you should inspiration strike, crickets chirping peacefully in the background. Somehow, replacing the joss stick incense with a cigar... it's just not working for me!
  
  Stay cool.
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  ryan

  11 months ago

  I'm a multi-faceted guy, what can I say?
  
  Here I am with a pipe:
  
  <img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/215/491402366_4d1b4e3b6f.jpg?v=0">
  
  Here I am with a fish:
  
  </img><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1264/549256969_df47355c7c.jpg?v=0">
  
  Here I am with a guitar:
  
  </img><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1002/799535326_6c82ea9bcd.jpg?v=0">
  
  Here I am in a river:
  
  </img><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1327/860709515_e4513789eb.jpg?v=0">
  
  And in New York City:
  
  </img><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1301/1093473898_7e8927e415.jpg?v=0">
  
  See? Many facets! :-)</img>
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