In myhowthingschange's defense, you have since posted a copy of that Live Journal entry here, making it look like you were talking about this site, not your old one.
Nevertheless, even when I was a JW, I noticed the ad hominem arguments that were freely doled out to ex-JWs. Since they believe they have the Truth, there's absolutely no way a person can leve the Organization upon discovering it is not true. So, when you first logically defended your viewpoints four years ago, many people (myself included) panicked and had to concoct all manner of reasons why you 'really' left.
When you left, my wife and I reasoned thusly: -Ryan was looking for a quick way out of a failing marriage -Ryan is too cocky to humble himself to the elders -Ryan likes being "different", and this is the ultimate expression of that -Ryan has no respect for puntuality (I didn't say they were good reasons)
One of my relatives accused you of being "too smart" to be in the Truth, and a friend of ours said you were just being selfish.
And you're not the only one. When other friends/family left the religion, my wife and I created all manner of excuses. For various people we said: They are going through a mid-life crises, they want to be 'bad', they are just too lazy to attend all the meetings, they got too consumed with their jobs, they were gay (that one was actually true).
I started collecting a list of reasons friends/family divulge to me as to why they think I left the religion, and it's funny how some of the reasons contradict each other (e.g., one person said I left because I am not a fighter, another person said I left because I insist on fighting against things). The funniest reason so far is that I left becuase I don't watch the news, and therefore am ignorant about where we are in 'the stream of time'. (CNN is now needed for salvation, evidently.)
The point is, when someone leaves due to a realization that the religion is no true, JWs have to find substitute reasons for why they left. So, this anonymous poster is unable to counter your arguments competantly, and is thus resorting to character defamation. Oh look! Ryan isn't keeping his word regarding a post from 4 years ago! That shows he's evil! Ergo, the JW are the Truth! Hallelujah!
ryan
· 1 year ago
Good point, yes, I did transfer my old LJ stuff over here and that is not immediately apparent to somebody reading this site that some of the content is referring to things that have changed somewhat. I realize that and wouldn't expect somebody to know that. Still, I don't think I've actually turned against the core sentiment of the quote, which is that I am not going to make it my lifes mission to destroy the Watchtower and I have nothing personal against the men and women and children within the Watchtower Society. If anything, I just wish there was a way to make them see the truth about the fantasy world they're living in, but there isn't and it's really not my job to help those who won't help themselves.
Jennifer
· 1 year ago
There are hateful apostates out there who fit the stereotype, who left 20 years ago and can't move on with their lives so they make it their mission to spew hate at the JW's constantly. What JW's don't realize is that isn't true of most people who leave. They are very ignorant of what life is like after you leave, since they aren't allowed to talk to us. One of our relatives doesn't even realize that us former JW's talk to each other. They must think that since they have to avoid "apostates" then even us "apostates" have to avoid each other. They just assume we still believe in the religion even when we explicitly say we don't, and give several logical reasons why we know it is not true. They say things like, "that guy left the truth 10 years ago, so he's REALLY bad". Um, thanks, so you think we're just sorta bad because we only left a year and a half ago? They assume we live and act like JW's still, they don't think we celebrate holidays, or vote, or not think it's crazy when they announce the wedding of an 18 year old, or plan for our kid to go to college, or become friends with "worldly" people or former JW's. They don't comprehend that leaving is a huge process that you go through. That you seek out support, and that us former members seek each other out for that support. They don't get that one thing you wrote 4 years ago isn't going to be exactly what you think today, because in their lives that's how things are. Nothing is fluid, everything is solid. They can't see your grey in their black and white world.
ryan
· 1 year ago
Jennifer, marvelously well written comment. :-) I think it's really interesting what you mentioned about how they are so limited in their imaginations about life outside the WTS. They really don't think that XJW's seek each other out for support? I hadn't really thought about it that way before, but I'm sure you're right. They just assume that we continue to judge each other the way they judge us.
BTW, based on the logic in your comment I will always be a couple of years badder than you. Nyah nyah!
And James, I was just rereading what you said earlier and I found myself laughing out loud at the "too smart" to be Witness. That's a reason for leaving that I can get behind! :-) Anything that can only be believed by stupid people is probably not true...
myhowthingschange
· 1 year ago
Very interesting what an anonymous message, and a nifty handle can spawn... how an individual can draw negativity and a spattering of "they" comments, from a quote not their own. as if "they" speak for "they".\: its amazing how easy it is to get someone to show their True Colors.
Occam's Razor: No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary, i.e., the fewer assumptions an explanation of a phenomenon depends on, the better the explanation.
“Free thinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking;” Tolstoy
Who is Ryan Sutter?
Evidentially not a free thinker... So, who are you following?
Perhaps the seeking out of people who don't know what they are seeking, for support, has represented itself well in the comments... yes marvelously written... and yes it has tainted your character... yes it has been defamed.
pity party anyone?
James
· 1 year ago
Hey, thanks Ryan. I also want to comment on how comments were handled by you versus how a comment was recently handled by a JW...
An anonymous person posted comments on posts that have long since left the front page of your site (incidentally, the fact that they visit & comment here shows they flout at least some of the Watchtower's guidelines). I didn't even know those comments were there until you purposely drew attention to them in this latest post. I gotta say, good for you! You could have just deleted those comments, or ignored them, and most of your visitors here never would have known they existed. Yet you created a new post just to answer the inferred jabs.
Conversely, a JW recently announced on their on-line journal that they are soon to be a father. I posted a congratulatory response (something real non-threatening, like "Congrats! You'll love being a Dad!"). The next day, my comment was removed. I'm not sure why my comment was viewed as needing deletion, but probably because it came from an ex-JW.
I am baffled by some of myhowthignschange's recent comment, but I do see more ad hominem arguments. Judging from the Tolstoy quote, I don't think anyone is truly a free thinker - perhaps it's just an ideal to strive for. The reference to Occam's Razor is also interesting: I thought of that very same thing back in 2000. After much soul-searching, I came to realize that I had all manner of convoluted explanations for explaing a Global Deluge, 607bc, the blood issue, the behavior of the elders, the things I saw at Bethel and the letters I had received from the Society. When I learned of Occam's Razor, I realized I could suddenlly explain them all very easily: the JW were not the truth. Occam's Razor also makes belief in God unnecessary, too, but I was unwilling to go 'there' at that time.
Jennifer
· 1 year ago
myhowthingschange said, "Perhaps the seeking out of people who don’t know what they are seeking, for support, has represented itself well in the comments… yes marvelously written… and yes it has tainted your character… yes it has been defamed."
Are you saying that I don't know what I'm seeking? In life? On what basis are you making this assumption? Are you saying that I tainted Ryan's character? Really? In what way have I have tainted Ryan?
This accusation is the perfect example of how JW's think that former JW's don't talk to each other, and if they do, then they further corrupt each other. One relative called a support group my Mom joined a "hate group". As if former JW's trying to move on with their lives are now a dangerous threatening group. The baseless stereotypes are frustrating, and can bring out the behavior that they accuse former members of having, even when these people weren't originally angry when they first left.
The quotes from myhowthingschange are truly confusing. It sounds like s/he is arguing on behalf of Ryan by the quotes provided, but then s/he makes a left turn and accuses Ryan of not being a free thinker based on the quotes provided. I have no idea how to interpret this, but those are some great quotes, so thanks myhowthingschange for providing them here. Both of them really apply well to leaving the JW's.
ryan
· 1 year ago
"“Free thinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking;” Tolstoy
Who is Ryan Sutter?
Evidentially not a free thinker… So, who are you following?"
This quote from Tolstoy is precisely descriptive of me. I used my mind without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clashed with my customs, privileges and beliefs back in 2004 and in so doing I discovered that the customs, privileges and beliefs I had adhered to for my entire life were wrong. Rather than succumbing to the panic induced by this painful, awful, soul-wrenching realization and going back in my shell, being a hypocrite and playing along with the WTS to retain my life, I continued to question everything without prejudice and wound up completely reforming every thing I believed. I continue to do this on a daily, weekly, monthly, hourly basis. If this is not the definition of a freethinker, I don't know what it could be. Who do I follow? Nobody. Who am I allied with? The people that I care about, my wife, my son.
MyHowThingsChange, I would like to thank you for providing an object lesson in exactly why I would never want to be a blindly following sheep in a centrally controlled religion ever again. You lurk, anonymously, because you know you're not supposed to be here. You attempt to pass judgment without knowing anything you're talking about, with no involvement in my life or what I've gone through. You smugly think you've made some sort of point against me with your Tolstoy quote when you've exactly supported my position. And one has to wonder, what you get out of this? Have you ever lost every one and every thing you've ever loved and had to restart your life from scratch in fear and anguish? Have you been shunned at your own brothers funeral by people you've known for decades? Have you had to deal with hateful slander, malicious gossip, idle rumors and direct psychological torment from people you love while still attempting to maintain your own belief in the decency and humanity of your fellow people? In short, have you ever truly suffered for The Truth?
Because I have. That's been my life for the last four years. And it's not just me. You, within your judgmental sphere of the Witnesses, appear to have no idea, not an inkling of a clue, of what it's like to deal with the discovery that you're entire life is based on false pretenses and that you can either be honest about it or you can squash the knowledge down in the name of "faith" to save your sanity. Well, there are thousands of us, tens of thousands, maybe millions, who have had to make that choice. Truth or Faith, the lives we love or the unknown harshness of reality. We're freethinkers. Whoever gives their liberty of mind and conscience over to another man or an organization or an archaic book, who calls themselves a sheep and is afraid to even say who they are, that person is in no position to pass judgment on anyone and really needs to take a hard look in the mirror at who they are, what they're doing and why they are afraid to face reality.
And about those True Colors. James and Jennifer have shown themselves to be noble, moral, honest, brave, and loving despite being persecuted by Witnesses for their beliefs. I'm proud to be their friend, proud of who they are, and the only True Colors on display on this web page that anybody should be ashamed of are your own.
Esther
· 1 year ago
Ryan, I can't believe that someone would take the time to dig up a quote from four years ago and throw it back at you. They don't know you and have no right to comment on your motives or character. It's amazing that religion seems to prompt people to think they can make judgments on people and situations that they have no idea about. But the people that know you, like James and Jennifer, see The Truth:-) You are a wonderful, kind, beautiful soul who has chosen, sometimes at great personal cost, to put your many year journey out there for public consumption. That is brave and I know it was done with the utmost integrity. And your documented journey has helped so many people to gain perspective on life and the growth process. We're all in this together but religion alienates some from that fact. You are a wonderful husband and father and I thank you with all my heart for embarking upon your journey of growth, which I am now lucky enough to share with you. Don't ever take the comments of insecure sad people like myhowthingschange to heart. I hope they will someday gain the courage to really look at themselves but until then, know that you've done the really hard work and are on the other side. You have a life that is not in bondage to the misplaced ideals of an organization. And you have the love and respect of all of those who truly know you.
James
· 1 year ago
Hey, thanks for the compliments!
Don't go too hard on myhowthingschange; if I remember correctly from when I was a Witness, the initial call is easy, it's the return visits that are doozies.
Casey
· 1 year ago
Hi there--a friend of Jennifer's from an online community. I too am a former JW and an "apostate." I'm really bummed to find out that I don't have to live up to the JW stereotype of an apostate. I put all that money into getting my house wallpapered with a nice black widow design, and I'll never get the black candle wax out of the carpet...
/snark ;-)
It shocks me how JWs somehow justify lurking online to check in on former friends, family members, or people they just want to pass judgement on. It makes me think their faith must be weaker than the realize--why not just let Jehovah handle it and clear their minds of the negativity? Isn't that what a truly faithful person would do?
Anyway, great post. I'll be glad to get to know you better through your writing!
ryan
· 1 year ago
True. I sympathize for the guy/gal, but to say that your character has been tainted and defamed, that just ain't right. I won't let something like that go unchallenged in my own forum.
Jennifer
· 1 year ago
Well, s/he has to attack your character because your other arguments are so air tight they can't logically refute them. It's such a poor course to take, attacking the individual because you don't like what they are saying. I find that this is what most of these "underground" JW's who go around reading info on the web that they technically aren't supposed to read, do when they are trying to argue that they have the true religion. How this proves it I don't understand. All they are doing is trying to make the former member look bad to the general public, as if the general public isn't smart enough to see through an ad hominem argument.
Stephen
· 1 year ago
As a witness, who checks in here infrequently, I am a little surprised that other witnesses continue to post this type of garbage.
I respect his decision, if not his beliefs, and I respect his right to freewill. I also still care a great deal about Ryan, and owe him an awful lot on both a professional and personal level.
I choose to ignore the religious posts, and pop in no and again just to see how your doing, and I said when we last spoke... I hope you find happiness wherever life takes you, and hope you feel the same way for me.
To the other witnesses who come here, and pick a fight (yes that is what you're doing), leave it alone... Ryan has chosen to lead a different life then the one that we have chosen, and while that has hurt us, it has also hurt him, and our own beliefs tell us that he is only accountable to the "mythological sky-god" that he doesn't believe in anymore.. That should be enough for you.. Don't add to the pain by irritating the sore..
ryan
· 1 year ago
Thanks Stephen. It's appreciated. I still think of you and I hope you're doing well my friend. Take care.
All Comments
Nevertheless, even when I was a JW, I noticed the ad hominem arguments that were freely doled out to ex-JWs. Since they believe they have the Truth, there's absolutely no way a person can leve the Organization upon discovering it is not true. So, when you first logically defended your viewpoints four years ago, many people (myself included) panicked and had to concoct all manner of reasons why you 'really' left.
When you left, my wife and I reasoned thusly:
-Ryan was looking for a quick way out of a failing marriage
-Ryan is too cocky to humble himself to the elders
-Ryan likes being "different", and this is the ultimate expression of that
-Ryan has no respect for puntuality (I didn't say they were good reasons)
One of my relatives accused you of being "too smart" to be in the Truth, and a friend of ours said you were just being selfish.
And you're not the only one. When other friends/family left the religion, my wife and I created all manner of excuses. For various people we said: They are going through a mid-life crises, they want to be 'bad', they are just too lazy to attend all the meetings, they got too consumed with their jobs, they were gay (that one was actually true).
I started collecting a list of reasons friends/family divulge to me as to why they think I left the religion, and it's funny how some of the reasons contradict each other (e.g., one person said I left because I am not a fighter, another person said I left because I insist on fighting against things). The funniest reason so far is that I left becuase I don't watch the news, and therefore am ignorant about where we are in 'the stream of time'. (CNN is now needed for salvation, evidently.)
The point is, when someone leaves due to a realization that the religion is no true, JWs have to find substitute reasons for why they left. So, this anonymous poster is unable to counter your arguments competantly, and is thus resorting to character defamation. Oh look! Ryan isn't keeping his word regarding a post from 4 years ago! That shows he's evil! Ergo, the JW are the Truth! Hallelujah!
BTW, based on the logic in your comment I will always be a couple of years badder than you. Nyah nyah!
And James, I was just rereading what you said earlier and I found myself laughing out loud at the "too smart" to be Witness. That's a reason for leaving that I can get behind! :-) Anything that can only be believed by stupid people is probably not true...
how an individual can draw negativity and a spattering of "they" comments, from a quote not their own. as if "they" speak for "they".\: its amazing how easy it is to get someone to show their True Colors.
Occam's Razor: No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary, i.e., the fewer assumptions an explanation of a phenomenon depends on, the better the explanation.
“Free thinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking;” Tolstoy
Who is Ryan Sutter?
Evidentially not a free thinker... So, who are you following?
Perhaps the seeking out of people who don't know what they are seeking, for support, has represented itself well in the comments... yes marvelously written... and yes it has tainted your character... yes it has been defamed.
pity party anyone?
I also want to comment on how comments were handled by you versus how a comment was recently handled by a JW...
An anonymous person posted comments on posts that have long since left the front page of your site (incidentally, the fact that they visit & comment here shows they flout at least some of the Watchtower's guidelines). I didn't even know those comments were there until you purposely drew attention to them in this latest post. I gotta say, good for you! You could have just deleted those comments, or ignored them, and most of your visitors here never would have known they existed. Yet you created a new post just to answer the inferred jabs.
Conversely, a JW recently announced on their on-line journal that they are soon to be a father. I posted a congratulatory response (something real non-threatening, like "Congrats! You'll love being a Dad!"). The next day, my comment was removed. I'm not sure why my comment was viewed as needing deletion, but probably because it came from an ex-JW.
I am baffled by some of myhowthignschange's recent comment, but I do see more ad hominem arguments. Judging from the Tolstoy quote, I don't think anyone is truly a free thinker - perhaps it's just an ideal to strive for. The reference to Occam's Razor is also interesting: I thought of that very same thing back in 2000. After much soul-searching, I came to realize that I had all manner of convoluted explanations for explaing a Global Deluge, 607bc, the blood issue, the behavior of the elders, the things I saw at Bethel and the letters I had received from the Society. When I learned of Occam's Razor, I realized I could suddenlly explain them all very easily: the JW were not the truth. Occam's Razor also makes belief in God unnecessary, too, but I was unwilling to go 'there' at that time.
Are you saying that I don't know what I'm seeking? In life? On what basis are you making this assumption? Are you saying that I tainted Ryan's character? Really? In what way have I have tainted Ryan?
This accusation is the perfect example of how JW's think that former JW's don't talk to each other, and if they do, then they further corrupt each other. One relative called a support group my Mom joined a "hate group". As if former JW's trying to move on with their lives are now a dangerous threatening group. The baseless stereotypes are frustrating, and can bring out the behavior that they accuse former members of having, even when these people weren't originally angry when they first left.
The quotes from myhowthingschange are truly confusing. It sounds like s/he is arguing on behalf of Ryan by the quotes provided, but then s/he makes a left turn and accuses Ryan of not being a free thinker based on the quotes provided. I have no idea how to interpret this, but those are some great quotes, so thanks myhowthingschange for providing them here. Both of them really apply well to leaving the JW's.
Who is Ryan Sutter?
Evidentially not a free thinker… So, who are you following?"
This quote from Tolstoy is precisely descriptive of me. I used my mind without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clashed with my customs, privileges and beliefs back in 2004 and in so doing I discovered that the customs, privileges and beliefs I had adhered to for my entire life were wrong. Rather than succumbing to the panic induced by this painful, awful, soul-wrenching realization and going back in my shell, being a hypocrite and playing along with the WTS to retain my life, I continued to question everything without prejudice and wound up completely reforming every thing I believed. I continue to do this on a daily, weekly, monthly, hourly basis. If this is not the definition of a freethinker, I don't know what it could be. Who do I follow? Nobody. Who am I allied with? The people that I care about, my wife, my son.
MyHowThingsChange, I would like to thank you for providing an object lesson in exactly why I would never want to be a blindly following sheep in a centrally controlled religion ever again. You lurk, anonymously, because you know you're not supposed to be here. You attempt to pass judgment without knowing anything you're talking about, with no involvement in my life or what I've gone through. You smugly think you've made some sort of point against me with your Tolstoy quote when you've exactly supported my position. And one has to wonder, what you get out of this? Have you ever lost every one and every thing you've ever loved and had to restart your life from scratch in fear and anguish? Have you been shunned at your own brothers funeral by people you've known for decades? Have you had to deal with hateful slander, malicious gossip, idle rumors and direct psychological torment from people you love while still attempting to maintain your own belief in the decency and humanity of your fellow people? In short, have you ever truly suffered for The Truth?
Because I have. That's been my life for the last four years. And it's not just me. You, within your judgmental sphere of the Witnesses, appear to have no idea, not an inkling of a clue, of what it's like to deal with the discovery that you're entire life is based on false pretenses and that you can either be honest about it or you can squash the knowledge down in the name of "faith" to save your sanity. Well, there are thousands of us, tens of thousands, maybe millions, who have had to make that choice. Truth or Faith, the lives we love or the unknown harshness of reality. We're freethinkers. Whoever gives their liberty of mind and conscience over to another man or an organization or an archaic book, who calls themselves a sheep and is afraid to even say who they are, that person is in no position to pass judgment on anyone and really needs to take a hard look in the mirror at who they are, what they're doing and why they are afraid to face reality.
And about those True Colors. James and Jennifer have shown themselves to be noble, moral, honest, brave, and loving despite being persecuted by Witnesses for their beliefs. I'm proud to be their friend, proud of who they are, and the only True Colors on display on this web page that anybody should be ashamed of are your own.
Don't go too hard on myhowthingschange; if I remember correctly from when I was a Witness, the initial call is easy, it's the return visits that are doozies.
/snark ;-)
It shocks me how JWs somehow justify lurking online to check in on former friends, family members, or people they just want to pass judgement on. It makes me think their faith must be weaker than the realize--why not just let Jehovah handle it and clear their minds of the negativity? Isn't that what a truly faithful person would do?
Anyway, great post. I'll be glad to get to know you better through your writing!
I respect his decision, if not his beliefs, and I respect his right to freewill. I also still care a great deal about Ryan, and owe him an awful lot on both a professional and personal level.
I choose to ignore the religious posts, and pop in no and again just to see how your doing, and I said when we last spoke... I hope you find happiness wherever life takes you, and hope you feel the same way for me.
To the other witnesses who come here, and pick a fight (yes that is what you're doing), leave it alone... Ryan has chosen to lead a different life then the one that we have chosen, and while that has hurt us, it has also hurt him, and our own beliefs tell us that he is only accountable to the "mythological sky-god" that he doesn't believe in anymore.. That should be enough for you.. Don't add to the pain by irritating the sore..